Student Interview$0 to $7k

Three, two, one. Hey, everybody, Harry here. Today I have Patrick B. with me, and we're gonna be talking about how Patrick made about $7,000 in sales in about four months with his comics and illustrations. So before we dig into that, Patrick, why don't I turn it over to you. Can you just briefly introduce yourself, and share a little bit more about your art practice?

My name is Patrick B. I've been working as a professional artist in the entertainment and advertising industry for just over 20 years. I didn't go to school for it. I started late in life at the age of 38, kinda fell into it after a not complete failure as an actor, but not making enough money for a living.

Really, so I didn't know you got started so late. So what kind of brought you into it at 38? How'd you pick up the pen?

Well, I made a decision. I started acting late as well. I didn't move to L.A. to be an actor. And when I started a lot of people were like, you don't want to do this. And I thought, well, I did, and I got work right away, but I also saw a lot of people who were very angry later in life about how things didn't work out. So I just made the deal with myself as soon as I get to that point, I'm done. And I did get to that point and I wasn't sure what to do. And I took about two weeks thinking about it. I didn't have a time limit just that's how it worked out. And after two weeks, I just was like, you know what? I wanna be in the entertainment industry. I'm not sure what. I got a job as a PA for a TV internet production company. I worked in the writer's room. I still like working doing writing, but that's not what it ended up as far as that job. I ended up being the art director within a year. And that was based on talent and management skill. There were people who were better artists than me. The outgoing art director was the one who actually said, no, it should be Patrick.

Interesting, so, I mean were you artistic as a kid at all? Did you draw or anything like that growing up?

Yes, I did, I started drawing, I guess right away. At the age of three, which was quite a while ago, it was safer for kids to be walking around. And I started walking around the neighborhood selling my color crayon sketches to neighbors for a nickel and a dime apiece.

Do you remember, like, some of the things that you sketched those earlier things?

It would probably be superheroes, but it might have been stuff like a fireman.

Yeah.

A monster, I mean, anything that kind of like a young...

Boy was into.

A young boy, yeah. Yeah, I started thinking, oh, would I draw anything as a young kid? Like, no, I wasn't drawing, like, flowers or anything unless in class I had to.

Very cool, and then, so I guess it, was there anything in particular, like when did you know you wanted to work in the entertainment industry?

I always wanted to since I was a child. I am from the Bay Area. And so I wasn't in the whole Hollywood thing, but while I was in art class, I came across an opportunity to be in a commercial to promote art in schools. And I never saw it, but, apparently, I heard it went well, and it was fun. It was very short, it was easy. Everyone said I did a good job. And then even after I moved down to Los Angeles. Like I said I didn't move here to be in entertainment. It was still in the back of my head. It was just something I always wanted to be a part of.

Is it 'cause you like stories, and like fantasy and things like that, or was it because you thought it was kind of a cool way to get to make a living, or do you know at all kinda what motivated you?

Yeah, I grew up on movies. My dad, old, black and white movies. The TV was constantly on. We didn't have cable, but movies were cheap back then as far as for the local TV station. So there were old movies playing all the time, all kinds of different ones I got into. It didn't have to be just monster movies, or science fiction, or whatever. I got into musicals, heavy dramas. And then by the time I was in high school, I was like one of the geeky kids that watched weird independent movies. I would even have friends occasionally go, "Hey, you wanna go see, like, "Repo Man" came out", and this guy goes, "You like, you see off things, you like weird movies, right"? I'm like, "Yeah".

That's cool.

Yeah, so that's how that worked out.

That's really cool. Yeah, I think that's probably one of the more pure noble reasons to wanna be in entertainment is that you like stories, and you just get sucked into them, and you've been enjoying that for a long time, you know?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So, like, what do you think makes you kind of unique as an illustrator, as an artist in the field?

Several factors. I would say most people who get into entertainment are really into movies, TV, or whatever at a very young age. So maybe that's not so unusual, but I did come from, I was working at restaurants, and I actually had managerial positions. And so I was acquainted with the business side of things. I ended up actually starting out when I was 25, I fell into acting 'cause I was just surrounded by it. So I just thought I'm already doing half the job. I'm a waiter, so I might as well try to get auditions. And that worked as an actor and going to acting classes, doing scene study, and oddly I knew about the comic book thing before it happened, meaning I always had a suspicion that they were gonna one day, I didn't know they were gonna take over, but I thought they were gonna be big. And at the time it was kind of an obscure thing to think, but I did, and sure enough I watched it all happen. And this is after the Tim Burton "Batman" movie. It really didn't kick in when they had the first "X-Men" movie, and I went, "Okay, here we go". And sure enough, before I became an artist I heard from other artists that it didn't matter if they could even draw, or tell a story. Hollywood came looking for independent stories, most famous one being "The Crow", I would think off the top of my head.

Okay, huh, interesting. So the question I was asking about like, what makes you unique as an artist? So it sounds like, I mean like, yeah, like you've got, you have a bit of a background, a multifaceted background in the field. And so you understand like more detail.

Sorry to cut you off, I have a ADD and the thought is fresh. Because of the acting.

Yeah.

Putting personality into the images as far as to having the background in any kind of management, I'm thinking about practical things. I can just right off the top of my head, there was a scene in N C I S, that was a car going underwater. There was a rescue. And I was given just a very little bit of direction. But the main thing was that the camera had to be in a specific spot for a final image when the person's pulled out of the water. That was what was most important. It was because of they're working with a giant tank and with a green screen, et cetera, et cetera, and going over it, I was like, you know what, you can film it from this angle, but what has to happen, is the actor must pull the other actor out of the water in this manner. It can't work any other way. Otherwise the shot's not gonna work.

Huh.

And so little things like that, which I don't wanna say other artists are not gonna necessarily think about that. But often an artist is really focused on making the picture itself perfect.

Right.

Which is not it's bad consideration, but it's just another consideration.

Totally. Yeah. It's almost like, I mean, you have a more like three dimensional understanding of like the project at hand, right. It's not just about this exact word for word matching the spec that they're giving you and representing that you can actually challenge and push back and give feedback,

Yes.

And give them an output that that's better than what they anticipated.

Yes.

Very cool. And like, yeah. So it sounds like you do, you've done some comics. You also do story boarding.

Yes.

What's the difference between a storyboard and a comic? Are they, what's the difference there?

Well, there's numerous, a comic book can go anywhere and it's only limited as far as your budget on the time that the artist has to draw it and the skill and the desire to make incredibly elaborate images. If the story...

Calls for it.

Exactly, sorry for the stuttering. And then there's also some comic books that are more simple. It's not that there are any less quality and it's not necessarily that they can still do the same things that other comics can do as far as angles and the change in time. If you're doing storyboards for a commercial, for TV or for a movie, you have to think about, I mean, a big one, especially for an independent movie, you have to think about budget and time. I was just recently in a job, I was presented with an issue where they had four hours to shoot a train scene at this place in Europe, where they had a hundred feet of track and one car.

Wow.

And the director was puzzled by how is it gonna happen? The cinematographer was like, this is gonna be hard. And because of my experience of dealing with independent work and such, and having the mindset I was telling you about earlier.

Yeah.

I came up with things that really helped them. I don't know if I went off track there with the question.

No. It was great. That was great. There's a little pun there, off track.

There you go.

No, that's cool. I mean, that makes a ton of sense. So it's like, sounds like, I mean, with a comic, the artist has really almost like no limits. I mean, their imagination. Right. But with a storyboard, it's like, you are thinking about the economic and time constraints of the broader project, of the other medium, that this is gonna get translated into.

Absolutely, if you're working on a monthly comic, then you have an issue to deal with time.

Right.

As the artist. And that can definitely put a hamper on the whole process and what you do draw.

Yeah.

But let's say you're doing something for yourself and you have all the time in the world where you can do whatever you want. And actually when I first decided to be an artist, I was actually working on being a writer. I held off on a graphic novel that I was starting to write on actually writing it until I learned to draw well enough.

Mm.

But that was the main thing. I'm sorry, I totally lost my train of thought.

No, you're good. You're good. So I was just gonna change the subject. Like, have you ever dabbled with comic strips or anything like that.

With comic strips themselves, no.

No, no.

Reading them, a Calvin and Hobbs.

Yeah. I read a lot of the Calvin Hobbs books and stuff, and yeah. Some of them are very simple, not a lot of art. And then others, like the ones where they're in space and stuff like that. I mean, it's just crazy detailed art, you know.

Crazy detailed art. Yeah. One of the most famous strip artist, he was a famous comic artist. Alex Tove actually worked right down the street from where I live now and lived a little bit farther away. I think he did the daily strip of Zoro, but I could be mistaken about that.

Huh. Well, cool. Let's go back to you. So like thinking back a few months ago, before we were working together, like try to remember back, I know it's hard to sometimes, but what was going on in your mind? What problems were you trying to tackle before we got connected?

One, things that became very apparent is just meeting more people. And this, you and I got con connected during COVID, and it's not that you couldn't connect to people online, but there's certain skills that you can learn that I didn't have. There are certain skills that I was aware of and did practice occasionally. But as far as looking for work, just being out there so people know what you do. I was not aware. I knew I wasn't doing the best job I could at that, but I didn't know how to improve.

Yeah. So with those things of like, kind of getting yourself out there, making new connections, building relationships. What were you trying to do at the time that wasn't working as well as you'd like, were you trying anything at all? Or.

God I'd have to think back before the COVID thing 'cause during COVID I wasn't really trying.

Yeah. I mean, that's a point you can just say yeah. Like in COVID so you, yeah, there wasn't especially I mean probably in California, there wasn't as opportunity to get together for industry events or things like that.

No. No, I have a friend that has a house that a lot of people meet at, he's just one of those guys that everyone goes over there and people are in the industry and that was, I got work from that just from meeting other people and you're hanging out and you're not even really discussing what you do. It just comes up occasionally.

Yeah.

While you're have munching on pizza, watching a movie. "Oh, you're an artist. I didn't know that". "Oh really"? "Hey, would you be interested doing this? I'll keep you in mind". And so that happened quite a bit, but that was in one setting.

Right.

And I didn't know how to like go to a coffee shop and I joined groups that were networking groups and unfortunately they were just full of other people who were quite honestly working less than I was.

Right.

And so it was occasionally I would try to help out somebody with least some suggestions, but as far as myself moving forward, it really wasn't helping.

Got it. Got it. And like, what were you feeling at the time with COVID going on? Were you nervous? Were you frustrated? What were your emotions like when you were thinking about this stuff?

Oh, very frustrated. I was not concerned during the whole, when COVID was happening, but frustrated and not working as far as sales, I had a very limited exposure to it when I was young with the whole Tony Robbins thing and it was beneficial to a point.

Okay, got it. Got it. So where did you first hear about us?

Oh, a YouTube ad.

And what peaked your interest in particular.

The fact I didn't have to be in a gallery. I knew I never tried to get into a gallery, but I knew it was very hard to get in and that I found very interesting. And also your prior work that you were doing with people who weren't artists was very impressive. So between those two and the artists that you did at that time work with, that was impressing me as well.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. And are there galleries for illustrators and people that work in that space?

Yeah. There are in a way, there's a lot of art that crosses over.

Sure.

And there's famous artists that are, that are known, for that.

What would that be like Pop art kind of maybe, or.

No, I would say it's usually that, they'll have, it won't be called pop art. It'll be called comic book art or entertainment art.

Mm.

But usually you'll see an extension of what they do, they'll do what they do in every day, whether it's on a computer, now everything's on a computer, but they'll do it in oil.

Mm.

Or they'll be very abstract is the other thing that'll happen. So you'll see where they get to do whatever they want.

I see. So they have their core, like commercial body of work, and then they may riff on that more experimentally. And then they might do that as a gallery show or something like that.

Yes. Yes.

Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. So, okay. So yeah, so not having to be in a gallery and some of the results we've gotten, for the artists and other clients we have, that makes sense. And so like thinking back, like I know we've done a lot together and there's more still to do, but what's like one or two or three things that have been helpful to you and helped you make these sales that you've had so far.

Honestly, certain skills, like we worked together the other day and just knowing that I like, I have something I can do to improve my situation, to get more clients. I actually have steps that I can make where before it was, nebulous like, well, I could meet more people, but now no, like, no, this is how you do it. This is how you can talk to people. These are the words that you can use. And actually having a roadmap that you can actually take steps has always been very important to me, no matter what I was doing. Growing up in high school, my art teacher was a very nice man, but we learned nothing. There was no steps. It was all about what you felt in expressing yourself with colors and everything. There was no, I mean, there is a process, especially if you're doing figurative art, things that are, or realistic art, there are steps you take that you can actually teach people.

Right.

And so to actually have of someone just going, "Well, you need to network more, you need to get out there more".

Be positive.

How, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it sounds like the tactical stuff and yeah. What else, and you're welcome to get more specific. If there's anything tactically or anything, you mentioned like right now, you're like looking to get some leads off of LinkedIn. So we worked on the LinkedIn profile the other day.

So actually it's given me ideas that are actually beyond your course, that, "Oh my God, I could do this". For instance, these interviews that we do like, "Oh, wait a minute, I could actually do this". And then I started thinking about all the people who I do watch on YouTube. People who do make a, I mean, not talking about someone like Joe Rogan, who actually has a studio, but people who decided, "Hey, I'm a famous guy or girl in my field, I'm gonna talk about whatever". And they're doing Skype meetings.

Right, right. Right.

And that's their channel.

Right.

And that in itself of like, wow, you don't need I've done about 40 YouTube shorts for YouTube, actually back when I was at Maker Studio, YouTube owned Maker Studio. And even then, even though everything was done on the cheap, you had to do a lot of work, it's a production. Even if you're doing something slacky you gotta film it someplace, you gotta have a lighting person, at least, you gotta have a sound person, at least like, for this, you don't, you just need yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good thing to call out 'cause it's like, I feel like I bet coming from the entertainment industry. Yeah. Like you're so used to more heavyweight productions where you've got all these people that do different roles, but then you see these people that are coming up and it's like, they have no one, it's just them and like the camera and whoever they're talking to. And a lot of those folks, you said that they're, famous in their field. It's probably like, no, they just start getting out there. And then because they get out there, they become famous. You know what I mean? If that makes sense.

Well, yes, they became famous for whatever reasons, but my point is they could probably afford or at least go to some entertainment company and pitch.

Yeah.

I wanna do the so and so show, which quite honestly, back in the day, if you just said, I'm just gonna talk to people on the phone, it would go nowhere. But you look at, I mean, YouTube interviews of yes, especially. And they're very interesting. When I work, I don't necessarily, I get to a certain point where I don't have to think like a lot of what I do there's a lot of thinking involved. Then there's the finishing. Once I get the thinking done part, I go to YouTube and I find like, what do I wanna learn today? What do I wanna hear about?

Have you done any interviews of clients that you've worked with so far?

Yes, I've done two, but since then I've actually realized, wait a minute, I could actually open this up to a bunch more people who I'm not necessarily directly working with, but I've worked with. I could actually benefit from the interview itself. We both can.

Right. Right.

It'll be fun.

And it'll be fun. Yeah. Nice. So what else, any other like tactical wins or ways that us working together has helped you in the last few months?

Maybe I'm just rehashing here, but how to, what to say. I even, I find myself and I mentioned this with you before and that artists, we like to talk about ourselves, we're doing stuff and a lot of artists, especially if you're a writer, you spend a lot of time alone and you're not talking to anybody. And so you get a chance to talk to people you're just gonna, word vomit on them. And so the thing was to listen. And if you look at other, if you start thinking about like, okay, so when did I get sold? Like when I bought a car or I bought some clothes, what was I doing? Was I talking like, no, I mean, I was talking, but they were listening. They were listening to me. That's what they were doing. I wasn't listening to their jibber jab. And I'm finding myself now doing that a lot more. It's not that I was ever a bad listener, but as soon as a topic came around that I wanted to speak about, you're just like on the edge. Yeah. It's exactly you're raising your hand. I wanna talk, wanna talk.

Isn't it cool to cultivate more of that awareness and just kind of start to see and be able to introspect on your behavior better. Yeah, that's cool.

Absolutely. The whole mind, I knew that this course could help me, that I knew, I didn't know exactly to what degree, but as soon as I read the mental training part, which is in the beginning, I was, yes, absolutely. I knew enough about how the mind works. I knew a little bit less about sales, and I could instantly read certain things. And even though there'd be things I knew, there was also these other things like, oh yeah, well, that makes sense. And that adds up. and I worked like I said, it was during COVID, so I had time and I was spending 20 to 40 hours a week. And a lot of it was in that first part. And after 30 days, there was a difference after two weeks, my wife said, I talk different.

Really?

The way you speak about yourself, I was coming across more positive, more self assured. Confident, not that I was not confident.

Yeah.

But it was almost like I was casual about the confidence.

Mm.

Like there's an old Saturday Night Live skip with Michael Jordan and, and Stuart Smalley goes, "Do you ever just wake up and say, I can't beat Michael Jordan today". And Michael Jordan says, "No". And that kind of thing started to happen and did happen. It's not that I'll never go back to doing that work. But honestly, after a month I didn't have to do it anymore.

Cool.

It, was not necessary.

Cool. That's awesome, man. I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. It's like, it can sound kind of abstract and hard to wrap your fingers around, what you're talking about, but it's basically yeah. Like we can work on kind of our self image and our beliefs and stuff like that. It has a huge impact on when we actually get to the tactics, how we do the tactics and how well they work for us and stuff like that.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think also just people get in the way, we get it in our own way. And that work really helps you, 'cause especially when you become aware of it, you're like, you'll say something and you'll catch yourself and go, "Oh, that is a limit. I've just limited myself".

Right, right, right.

So that really helps a lot.

Good, good, good. That's excellent. Why don't you, I know, right before we got on, you were telling me about, so some of the folks you work with, sometimes they don't have that much in funds. Can you tell a little bit about those anecdotes you were sharing with me? Did I give you enough of a clue or.

No, I do. I do. There's certain work you do to help other people who are other creatives and wanna move up in the world and you will, at times meet people who have, they don't have access to anything, but they have access to more than they think. And also at the end, when you present to them, the value that you're gonna give them, they're like, You know what, this is not just, it's like going to a, you can go to a restaurant, a really nice fancy restaurant, or you can go to McDonald's.

Right. And the question is sometimes, "oh, I just can't afford to go get a flame in. I just can't afford it.

Right.

But then you'll get another time where you're like, I could afford that, but I'm gonna save money. But then when you realize how you're gonna feel after you eat that steak, when you're gonna realize how much better, like nutritionally wise your body is doing with that food, you realize you made a good investment, like yes, I made an investment in myself and yes, you know what, maybe now I can't buy as much junk food.

Right.

I can't go get the next iPhone right away.

Yeah.

No, I think to your point earlier about the mindset stuff, it's like, yeah. Like it's not that that person didn't have money, it's that they were just nervous about their funds.

Oh yeah.

And you, and we believe them were like, oh, this person doesn't have money. But then if you realize, like you said, you talk to them, you build value, you show them that you're gonna be more helpful than the other person they could work with.

Exactly.

Then they're like, wait a minute, actually have some, some optionality here. Like the calculus has shifted.

Yeah.

I wanna afford your rate or whatever it might end up being.

Exactly.

And then they figure it out. How to make it happen.

They figure out how to make it happen. And if at the end, if there's somebody who are, somebody who's on the verge of bankruptcy or whatever, something really bad, most likely they're not even gonna contact you.

Totally.

And then if they're not, even if they do contact you, they're that person, you know right away.

Right.

Like maybe this is not good time for you.

Yeah.

Let's talk later. I've actually...

Most of our decisions that we make, like purchasing decisions. We may not feel it cause we're not thinking about, them that much, but they're like 90% in that realm of like subjective value. Right. If we are all buying just like store brand food items or like clothes without any logos or things like that. But like, that's not how any of the economy works. Like everything is basically nudging you to try to get you to see that there's more value here than just the raw materials that are involved in the process. So any thoughts or response to that? Does that make sense?

Yeah, it absolutely makes sense. We do actually go through life, just kind of spending money here and there and not really thinking about it. And my parents grew up in the depression. So actually I was trained to think about it quite a bit. But you do, if you really think about what you're doing, it's not just investment of your money, it's your time.

Yep. Okay.

You're gonna sit on the couch and just watch TV every night.

Yeah. I mean there's a time and a place for that, relaxing and just watching something mindless. But if you really think like, okay, well, I mean, I'm always telling people when someone starts to, friendly friends, not going to do this to a stranger, but when it's a friend and they're dilly, dallying around whatever, and I always say, look, I've got less than 50 years to live. I don't have time.

Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Trading basically money for time. That's what we're doing a lot more making these decisions. And I think I was, what I was trying to get at is like, even if you take like the most budget friendly item in a category, like a Toyota car or something like that, that lowest end of the low end market, it still has like a ton of margin in the price point that they're gonna make it make a good deal on making that sale. And like...

Absolutely.

We're just nowhere near selling products and services that are just like bare bones, everything, every product, even the most like budget or affordable products are wrapped in that perceived value that it then leads people to say yes to those products and services, including your artwork. If that makes sense.

Oh yes. It makes sense. Artwork is greatly undervalued by the masses. And when I say that, I know that people look at it and think it's wonderful and think it's great, but the amount of time and energy that, that artist put in just to get where they are, not for your individual piece, but everything they did in order to get to the point where they could give you that piece, all the years, literally years and usually often more than decades of training. I started late. And still, I can tell you, there's two decades behind what I do. So every art, even if they only have three years, they were studying hard, they were practicing. They were, it's a lot of energy that goes into every piece of work.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, any creative field, like there's a lot of effort that goes into becoming good at that pursuit. So doesn't surprise you.

Your course in point. When I think about sometimes the amount of work you do and I'm like, oh man.

I'm glad that that comes through.

No, it did.

Yeah. I'm working on like the next version right now. And it's like staring down and I'm like, man, this is gonna be a big project, but it's fun. I enjoy it.

Well, yeah. Thank God for that.

So you mentioned like the way you were talking with your wife change, maybe some of the dynamic there, like what else, has there been any other areas of your life beyond your business and these sales that you've made that have improved?

Yes. It still has to do with the sales, but the idea that of, and repeating myself again, but actually having a plan of something.

Yeah.

Takes a huge burden off of, it's like if you travel and you get somewhere and you don't speak the language, you actually don't know exactly where to go. You don't know how to order food.

They're driving on the other side of the road.

Like it, the, yeah. I didn't drive on the wrong side of the road, but I drove in the wrong lane I found out, anyway, it's very stressful. And so just that in itself is huge.

Right.

I also find.

Like, think about if you're in that foreign country and like, someone's trying to give you directions and you're trying to hold it all in your head. Like, oh, even if you have a plan, but you're like, you don't have the tools. You don't have anything to write it down or like delegate it, like, get it outta your mind. It's stressful as anything. But yeah. It's like, if you can get it outta your head and like, come back to it and revisit it, it just becomes way more manageable to tackle like a big project.

Exactly. The other thing I find that feels really good especially working with other people in our group, you can see this stuff, you see what they do, and you can point it out to them and help them. And when I guess it doesn't, I mean, it happens with strangers too, but you're not actually pointing out like, "Hey, if you said it to yourself this way, you'd feel a lot better". You'd be able to help friends out.

There's a culture in the community where certain things that yeah, you would just let pass with strangers. Like you can actually, because you know that you have the shared goal and the shared kind of vernacular, like you can talk to each other about those issues without necessarily being deep, deep friends,

Yeah. But even, but yes. And then with friends, I finding that I'm sharing this stuff and I'll say, " Who or not students of yours".

Right. And I'll bring this stuff up and they'll go, "Oh oh, I didn't think of it that way. That actually helps a lot. Thank you". And I'm finding that one of the things that you've said over and over is things happen when you start to help other people. And that's what's really cool about this, that I was not exposed to when I was young, when I briefly tried sales out, was it wasn't about, then, what I was being taught was not about helping the people, it was about is this person gonna be a customer? Are you qualified, all that kind of stuff? And that still happens. But if you're sincere about really helping them, it makes it fun.

Yeah.

It makes it fun to actually look for work. 'cause I know I can help these people. It's not me just saying, "If you hire me, I know I can help you". You're actually, you're like, no, I know I can help you.

Yeah, I've already helped you a little bit. And if you like this, there's more here where that comes from.

Exactly.

Yeah. No, that's cool, man. That's really cool. It's yeah. There's different schools of thoughts with sales. You get this, I think a lot of people come up with that image of like, they get handed this huge list of contacts, maybe like Glen Gary, Glen Ross. And it's like smile and dial, just like grind through cold calling people. And I think that worked at one point, but I think, and I know it still works today, but it's just not, it's not energizing. Right. It's not as enjoyable.

Yeah. I think people are more savvy to it. And they just, they stay away from it.

Yep. So there's definitely a movement. Like the whole thing in sales is like, if you can be perceived by your audience as a trusted counselor, but that's kinda like the pinnacle perception and people don't say, "Oh wow, Patrick, you're my trusted counselor". But you can just tell because they listen to your advice. They like your input. They're coming to you. It's a two-way relationship rather than you just pushing stuff at them.

Yeah. And it's so satisfying too, when they're happy, I had a director, I improved on what I thought they wanted, and the director said, "You know, it's not exactly what I wanted, but this is better". And it's the ego fulfillment was really good, but also the idea of like, wait a minute, I just improved their day.

Yeah. They're gonna be a little bit better.

Yeah. It's like, you have, I think there's something about in any creative field, especially art, like if you know that your work is making someone's day better or it's changing the course of their life. Right. In some direction, that's like a drug it's really fulfilling.

Yes, yes it is. Yeah. You see why people do other than if it's their faith or their own personal desire to just be good. You can see why they put themselves in harm's way or they make their own lives miserable to help others. And they're just like, "Oh wow".

There's some other level of the psyche that they're feeding by doing that, which makes them, that's appealing. Yeah. Anything else? Any other areas of your life that you feel like you've improved? We've covered a lot.

I'm probably missing something to be honest with you.

No worries.

I have other interests outside of entertainment and I guess you could just say how the brain works, how society works ,is really fascinating to me. And actually that crosses over into specifically screenwriting, is really under learning psychology and everything. And the psychology of this, of your training is really insightful and fascinating, once again, as I said, learning stuff from long ago, the only time I ever heard anybody actually go into any of that kind of stuff was reading the Tony Robbins book. Other than that, working with other, doing like you said, like, "You gotta get on the phone, you gotta call in the next hour, you gotta call at least 60 people".

Right.

Get your nose in. And that was not addressing any kind of like, to me, there's a certain spiritual factor of actually applying psychology with other people when it's in a positive realm. and that is very fulfilling. I know people are fulfilled, like, " Yeah, I got the sale". But to know all this stuff and why it's working and then to actually see it in other people and like I said, to offer, I can't think of any, I know it's happened once or twice when there's been some kind of conflict between friends and I brought up, well, they just want this or they just want that. And it's because you start to learn what really ticks people.

Right.

Or what makes people tick.

Right.

And so that feels good. It feels to me, it's a fulfilling, interesting thing.

So it sounds like, yeah, like it's helping you, like, be it like a peace broker in some of your relationships or.

Sometimes yeah.

Sometimes or, yeah, no, exactly. I mean, it's like our primary objective is to help you guys make more art sales, but in order to do that, you have to understand, what motivates people, what motivates them to take action and when you get into all that stuff, it opens up a huge like discussion of psychology that is very widely applicable to other relationships and things. So I'm always excited to hear that. And it's cool because it just allows you to tap in like deeper versions of yourself. And you're like, I didn't know I could do this, but like, I I just helped this person or I made my friends day or whatever it is. And it's just because you you've been flexing these kind of psychology and communication skills. So that's awesome.

Yeah. I actually I was thinking it really wouldn't matter what you do. Like if somebody just did that first part of the course, and they're not an artist and they don't wanna sell anything, like you're gonna get a lot out of that.

Yeah.

It's huge. And I can also see immediately that is the foundation because we have our own little I think everybody does their own little, personal roadblocks that pop up when they're doing other parts of the business, whether it's the sales or actually even in the creation, you start to see like, "Oh, that's a little, that's something I'm doing in my head".

Right?

Like, that's not really what's going on.

Right.

I'm playing this mind game on myself.

Yeah. This loud voice in my head has been saying, this is the way things are, but now I'm getting distance from it and I'm like, wait a minute, is that true?

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Well, cool, man. Well, do you feel like you've gotten a return your investment so far?

I got my return on my investment as soon as I read or listened to the first combo, the first few lessons. Financially, I absolutely did. In fact, I would've, there's a client I would've not worked with, had I not taken the course.

You would've written them off proactively that like, it's not a fit.

It's not a fit. Absolutely. It was just like, it's not a fit. They want it too quickly. What they wanna invest is just like, I understand why they're doing it, but like, I don't have time to help.

So you would've taken those things that they shared with you as like, fixed truth that were unbelievable and been like, that's not a fit and moved on, but...

And I have to also tell you there's two clients specifically, which equal three people, 'cause there was a team on one and they were ecstatic with what they got, ecstatic. I mean, well we'll just leave it at that. It was a very good experience for all.

Good, good, good, good, good, good. That's awesome. So like thinking back to our conversation, when we first connected, we are having a strategy session together, why did you decide to do business with us?

Oh, I'm thinking back, give me a second.

It was a while ago, but yeah. Try to remember back.

It was the certainty of the, I don't remember the actual specifics, but even before the strategy call, I watched everything that you had online and I showed one or two to my wife and she just goes, that's the guy. Like, yes, if that's what we're gonna be doing. Yeah. Go ahead and do that. And then I had my strategy session. I said I'm gonna think about it 'cause my wife could not be on the call, she was getting ready for work. And so she overheard a little bit of it, but I sat down with her and I said, look this is an investment. and I said, I think based on what I already heard, I'm going to get something out of this, no matter what, ideally I'm going to do as well as the others have done.

Yeah.

Or other artists have done, but I'm not expecting to, but I think there's valuable there anyway.

Yeah.

And my wife was like, absolutely. You know what, let's say it's horrible. It doesn't work out. You get nothing out of it. And I was just like, oh, I'm gonna get some, I mean, it was kind of interesting that I did know without knowing about the whole mental part of the course. And I keep talking about that more than the other, just because that was the shock to me. Like I knew I needed to learn how to speak better.

Right.

In a sales relationship, I knew that was an issue. The mental part. It's not that I didn't know I had whatever quirks or whatever, but I didn't know I'd be helped with that.

Right. Or that, I mean like the way that you get better at communicating means like turning over those rocks and like inspecting those mental issues and working on that stuff.

Exactly.

Yeah. Was there anything that kicked you over the fence? Was it like, kind of your wife saying yes. Or was there anything else.

The guarantee helped, but honestly, as soon as I, once again, soon as I read it, I'm like, there's no way. I'm like, I'm getting something out of it. I already got it. I got it.

So you had gotten value from all of our interactions from talking to me one on one and stuff you watched, and you knew that like, if, if you got that value, there was gonna be more to learn.

Honestly, if I stopped being an artist tomorrow, I got my money's worth because there's other parts of my life that it can apply to.

Yeah.

And I even talked to another friend who was having issue with sales and I said, the guy who I'm working with, Harry doesn't handle what you're going through, but I am going to, which I'll ask later, but he probably has some suggestions because there are things that you can do.

Right. Right.

So I could tell that this is not just art that this applies to.

Right.

And I think like, what's so cool to me is what motivates me is not like just you guys making more sales or making a couple sales in the first few months. Like, that's great, but it's really like when you guys realize that, "Oh, this is not just the sale. It's the fact that I've learned how to make this sale again. And again, and again", it's like learning how to fish and know that you have that skillset for the next year, the next two years, next five years, next 10 years like that. When, when that sinks in, that's when you realize, oh my gosh, this is something different.

You just actually triggered a memory. So repeatable process in the first meeting, hearing that in the strategy session, that was a huge, huge, huge thing. Like, oh, so I can do this again and again, it's not just a one time thing. And I don't know if you ever came across it, you're obviously younger than me, but the whole Ponzi schemes have come and gone numerous times in my lifetime. A group in the Bay Area, they were really big in the late seventies. I can't remember the name of it, but it was people were having parties, but you knew there's a certain point where that is gonna run out. That's the whole definition of the Ponzi scheme. And knowing that there's a repeat like, oh, so this is not a one time. I'm not just gonna land the one deal.

Right. Right, right.

That's really cool.

Yeah. And it's like, when you realize the reason you're not gonna just land one deal, is because it's not like you're getting exposure to some hidden source of leads that you didn't know about. It's that you're learning how to interface with other people in more productive ways where these people, that weren't leads before now become leads. And you can just make more leads on top of that.

As I actually thought the course was going to be that, was gonna be possibly this like, so where are these people? Or, because I was doing, I dunno if you remember, but I was doing these pieces of art doing illustrations that were outside of the entertainment industry, even though it was entertainment characters.

Right.

And it was the idea of like, well, who was gonna buy this, I mean, we know somebody is, but we don't know who, so that's what I thought it was gonna be like, oh, we'll get the leads.

Yeah.

So I get it, man. Like most people, not just artists, but most people in sales when they start out, that's the mental model. Like if I can only find this one secret honey hole, all my problems will be solved. And it's just a little bit more nuanced than that. But once you get your head around the nuance, it's actually way more empowering. Cause if it was the thing that if the truth was that there was this hidden source of leads, when that source of leads runs out, you're back at square one.

Yeah. And that's part of the whole mindset too, of what I thought of sales before, what it was late in the movie of Glen Ross.

Yeah.

I can't remember the name of it, but there was those magical leads.

The guy, the whole sales guy was desperate to get the leads.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yep. So, well, awesome, man. Well, so would you recommend others work with us?

Yes. Yes.

Well think for a second, I'm gonna lower my blind 'cause it's coming across my face, but my next question will be like, just think on it for a second don't answer yet. But like what sort of artists in particular do you think are good fit for us? So I'll be right back.

Okay.

All right. Back.

Okay. I would think any artist is going to benefit. I think one's that'll specifically benefit are ones that are already selling, ones that are already selling with a gallery, and I have nothing against galleries. But I do have issue with the idea that there are gatekeepers and I don't like the fact that that limits us, is really frustrating. And so I think anybody who has ever bounced off of that, I mean, there's numerous artists I've been been hearing in the group. They don't know who their customers are. it's one advantage I have over them. Like really, You don't know? Like, no, gallery didn't tell us. That was just shocking to me. You don't know who owns your work. Like I get it if it's on your whatever artsy, obviously you don't know those people, the thousands of people who bought your t-shirt or whatever.

Yeah. But you don't know who bought your five by seven foot oil painting. You don't know who owns that. That's like, I would think if I was the buyer, I'd wanna know the artist.

Right, right. Get to meet 'em, shake their hand,

Yeah. Or at least know about them.

I'd wanna know here is the art hanging? Is it in someone's Lake house or in their home? Like what role is it playing, is it in their dining room? Like I would wanna know all that stuff if I could.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, there is a part of you that does want a good it's like people sometimes sell a house or a car, they're like, it's just wanna know who's a good home for it. But you also, especially when you do a piece of art where you're like, I might wanna hang onto that. I think I'm gonna keep it. But when you meet somebody who is like, I mean, I finally, I had this one painting, this guy wanted it for years. I think it was three or four years. He was always asking me about it. And I was just, you know what, it's so important to you. It's yours.

That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And I have nothing against galleries either. I think the good ones, I get why they can't, they feel like they can't share who the clients are, but they at least provide some sort of general insight into like, well, these are on average, your clientele, or this is where they're coming from. Something like that would be a nice visibility. And they definitely play a role. They can be helpful, but.

Yeah. And I like to go and look at the art.

Right, Right.

It's nice to go to a, my big thing is going to conventions like Comic Con, I mean, that's, to me, I've gone numerous years. I don't spend a dime. I go and I look at the pieces of art that I cannot afford. And quite honestly, where am I gonna put 'em all, 'cause there's dozens and dozens of images that I'm just like, God, wouldn't that be nice hanging. But at the end of the day, people who collect a massive amount of that art, it's not even hanging up.

Mm.

So much they have to put it in the corner somewhere.

In the corner or storage or so.

I like going and seeing it somewhere. So yes, absolutely.

Well, so yeah. So what other sort of artists do you think we're a good fit for, any other types?

Yeah. I think abstract artists, only because it's a, from my knowledge and I may be wrong, so whoever's gonna correct me later, it's okay. So any kind of abstract art, just because, from what I understand, it's the most popular. So if you're learning how to meet more people, how to find more clients, if you already have a piece of art or art style that resonates with people. That's fantastic. I also think of anybody who thought they couldn't sell their art. I've met people who are fantastic artists who worked, in the entertainment industry or did stuff on the side for family and giggles, but they're really good. And they didn't know that, there's this one guy he painted floating mountains, mountains that were upside down in the air. And this guy, this is long before, probably before you were alive. This guy, he met an art agent. And they said, you can sell these, there is a market for these, people love this stuff. So I don't know, greeting card artists, maybe can't use your help.

No, it's interesting to hear your perspective. That's all good. Yeah. I think those are all valid and I think, just like some of the stuff you're saying earlier, like if you're open to working on your mindset, working on your communication skills, like working on those different things,

Yeah. If you feel for any reason think like I did and rightly so that you have room to grow just as a human being period. Yeah. This will work for you.

Nice. So if someone's listening and they're on the fence, why should they take action right now?

Repeatable process. You're making an investment in yourself, the only concern I can think of is if you're homeless and you don't have any cash, I get that. But if you are considering this, I don't think there's any reason to keep you from doing it. If you're an artist at work so much, other people see your artwork and you really don't want to deal with people 'cause you're some weird introvert and sorry weird introverts, I don't mean to offend you, then yes. But your course can help you be a better artist because you can actually work with your client better.

Right.

Right. For sure.

Right. Yeah. No, I think that's fair. Yeah. If you're Jeff Koons or something like that, you might not need to work with me, but most people aren't very, very that level of success or anything like that.

So, yeah. And I think from what I understand, there are people who work with you that don't necessarily need to work with you, but they're benefiting still.

I like that. We have this interesting cohort. I haven't shared with you, but there's these newer folks coming in, that yeah have gallery representation. They're selling their pieces for a lot of money and they just, even though they're already busy and they want to keep, have time with the canvas and stuff. They're just benefiting so much from this 'cause it's helping them think about their art practice and their messaging and how they engage with their clients in new ways, in better ways. And they're like, they're just all over it. Even though like, it's not like they have to immediately see a sales ROI from what they're doing. So I'm with you on that for sure. Awesome. So what's your number one piece of advice for artists?

My number one piece of advice.

Yeah.

For artists Keep on doing the art. Don't stop doing the art, do the art all the time specifically, I'm thinking of somebody who is creative, but they don't do painting. And I've seen that person fail over and over again. And they always go upwards.

Mm.

This person has done more creative stuff than I have ever seen. We're all stunned by it because this person has failed over and over again and they've gotten better. And from what I understand though, I haven't talked to this person since this happened. They just bought a nice plot of land. An ex con too, by the way. So keep at it do it just, that's the number one advice.

Yeah. It's like, if you just take action. Yeah. You're gonna make mistakes.

You're gonna make mistakes. You're gonna have some of the art you're not gonna like, there's gonna be things that you're not happy with, but whoever takes more action, they end up having more mistakes, but they have more successes too. And I think it's the same with art. And I think it's the same with what we do together through the communication and the sales and all of that.

Babe Ruth had the record of most strike outs.

What's that?

Babe Ruth had the record for most strikeouts. I don't know if it still holds, but.

Oh right. That exactly he had the most home runs at at his time and the most strikeouts. Yeah, exactly. So I guess that's probably where swing for the fences.

There you go. Yeah.

Nice man. Well, this is great. So what's ahead for you. What do you have planned for the next three to six months? What are you excited about? What are you looking forward to?

Oh, well, there's quite a bit going on prior to starting with you and prior to COVID hitting, I had a film that I wrote that was in pre-production. So we're working on that again. I have my own graphic novels that I'm working on. I also am excited because having this skill of having something that I can do rather than hoping and waiting or trying to find, I just now have a way to actually look for work that I know that I'm probably going to get into a position where I have to turn it down. And it's not that that hasn't happened before, but you do get to a, we live in a three, four dimensional universe and you can only do so much as a single person.

That's an exciting transition when you start to have so much opportunity coming to you where you're like, great, I think this is a good opportunity. This is a good opportunity, I can only pick the better one. And it's weird when you first have that coming to you, but that's a good sign. That means you're heading the right direction. And it means that like your communication's getting better, like inevitably hands down, like everybody who gets better at communicating has that happen. It just has to, because like you're resonating with more people. 'Cause you're resonating with more people, they're gonna have more demands on your time. And then you have to introduce new ways to handle that opportunity and weed through it and stuff like that. So that's exciting, man.

Yeah, as I said, I don't wanna say what it is, but I was telling you earlier, this course has made me realize there's something else that I can do that I didn't know I could do before, and we'll just leave it at that, but it's but like, oh, okay.

Nice, nice, well, awesome man. Well, so, Patrick, if people wanna learn more about you, where can they find you online?

They can find me online. You can find me on Facebook. You can find me on Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn.

Cool.

I think that's everywhere.

Cool, yeah, awesome. Well, good stuff, man. It's been great working with you, I'm really happy for you.

Thank you, same here.

And can't wait to see what happens in the coming months for your practice.

All right, cool, thanks.

All right, peace.